[–][deleted] 30 points31 points32 points 4 years ago (0 children). Noteworthy, though, a significant segment of sovereigns do not follow any religious doctrine as part of their sovereign stance. "Where these allegedly binding definitions come from is a varied and often perplexing matter," writes Caesar Kalinowski IV, a Seattle attorney who recently confronted sovereign legal claims in the Montana Law Review. So in Germany, we’ve recently had a spate of people acting under the header of “Reichsburger”. These sources are experts and educators within their profession. I wouldn't be surprised if they argue that the DMV is able to exercise its power over non sovcits because the thing being transported is their "corporation", but I've never heard this argument explicitly used. If you want to drive on public roads in Michigan, you must have a valid driver’s license. I believe that we only extend that courtesy to other sovereign states that maintain embassies within the United States. If you are using a vehicle for commerce you can be taxed or fined or have to pay tarrifs (in theory) for traveling between states. Why can't any of you nutters ever spell, punctuate or capitalize correctly? Not all sovereign citizens affiliate with any particular organization. Think about a law you don’t like. Good summary about traveling versus driving and a car versus a motor vehicle, from FamGuardian: “A state Citizen has the right to travel on the public easements (public roads) without being registered. If they want to play games, they are the one making the contact last longer. Citizenship is a contract. This may be called “Tools” or use an icon like the cog. Authorities call Williams a sovereign citizen. Ask them where their embassy is located, and the name of their ambassador. Yet they forget we have different levels of legal violations in this country. [–]Blindmouseottawa 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children). So if they are a free person, well maybe 911 is something they are free to keep away from as well -- as in no ambulance and no fire trucks for them because they are not paying for the service. A sovereign citizen doesn’t drive their vehicle. Ifyou are a citizen of a country, you are bound to respect its constitution and the laws that derive of it. It seems some sovereign citizens will make their own license plates for their cars. [–]RBeck 20 points21 points22 points 4 years ago (0 children). but i guess its not tehnically "sovereign citizen" because you are using the constitutional rights of the united states of america. Most sovereign citizens are basically law-abiding people, albeit highly misinformed about how the law works. The country owes you enforcing the respect of your rights and you owe it abiding to its laws. All the right to freely travel between states means is that you cannot be taxed/fined to cross a state border into another state. My roommate's brother is completely delusional and is giving money to Sovereign Citizen-themed Scammers. “The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highway and to transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not … If you do not agree a course can help you for this much with me payment to me helping you (ticket). It's like a 8 year old trying to get their parents to let them stay up late or get out of trouble when they are caught breaking a rule. Extremist Legal Arguments, FBI: Sovereign Citizens A Growing Domestic Threat to Law Enforcement, Southern Poverty Law Center on the Sovereign Citizens Movement, Those who identify themselves as "Sovereign Citizens" will probably be banned, even if they are joking, No comments defending "Sovereign Citizens" will be tolerated. what problems have you ran into being one? Basically their argument is that legally, "driving" requires the transportation of cargo, and so if you aren't transporting anything, you're not driving, you're "travelling", and you don't need a license. If you must, please simply post a screenshot. As good faith human being, our reputation is sign of creditability. It legal to travel without a licence. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. Cop: Ok, do you know how fast you were traveling? Often the sovereign citizens don’t bother to pay for their licenses. I believe there have been Supreme Court cases on this very issue but only for professional drivers. Copyright © 2021 Police1. If you suspect you are dealing with a sovereign citizen as a LEO, please call for backup. The one pole town and the violent boneless ribs, Why the Sovereign Citizens movement is becoming a religious movement. It's the belief that government has no rights to impede people at the personal level. You have a right to travel. Oh good to know! Their tactic is to cause confusion with the officer. A statutory “U.S. Although sovereign citizens share no common physical characteristics, peace officers can look for certain indicators to help identify them. People who got their law degrees by reading Facebook comments feel that being detained is the same as an arrest. The short answer: a sovereign citizen is someone who believes that he or she is above all laws. the dmv is not a federal government organization, they are state by state. But the colors on the outside of the flag thing is totally legit, right? You can cross borders and even leave the country without having to pay or ask for permission. Make sure you have backup. How brief that short time will be is decided solely by the citizen. Since there is no such thing as a sovereign citizen, a sovereign citizen license plate hits a couple of categories. In fact how does a license guarantee safety, its just a piece of plastic with your identification on it, the true cause of safe driving is simply having a sense of safety inherent in us already. [–]partialinsanity 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children). Or the person vs citizen argument. One of hosts of the Maine “Aroostook Watchmen” radio show, who considers himself a “sovereign citizen,” was convicted on Monday for operating a vehicle without a license… Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browser’s Help menu. Can someone explain the "traveling not driving" argument? REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc. π Rendered by PID 10024 on r2-app-06199ff07275b5ae7 at 2021-02-24 11:14:26.741458+00:00 running b1d2781 country code: GB. There are a few ways: 1. Comercial does cause it may cause ecomincal damage. ive been trying to research this more...any info would be great. What the sovereigns fail to grasp is they are free to travel, by foot, by bike, even by horse. That they have the right to do what they want, and no one else has the right to infringe on that right. 1. “I am not driving, I am traveling.” Often the sovereign citizens don’t bother to pay for their licenses. However, some sovereigns have proved a willingness and ability to be violent. The exception is professional drivers. Yes it has been used for more. It's the belief that government has no rights to impede people at the personal level. In the United States, they do not recognize U.S. currency … To operate a complex machine requires training and some licensure to operate said machine. citizen” does not. If you read any sovereign literature, they advocate trying to confuse and befuddle the police. And not surprisingly there are any number of vendors of driver’s licenses, license tags, pleadings and other papers who are glad to sell their An officer with reasonable suspicion that a violation has taken place may stop someone for a short time to establish facts related to that violation. I had been informed otherwise. Travel is a right, which is true. No direct links to reddit comments or submissions will be allowed. [+]TotWcreator comment score below threshold-17 points-16 points-15 points 4 years ago (14 children). This does not apply to private travelers but it also does not make private travelers no longer drivers, they still have to obey the laws WITHIN the state they are driving in. In their twisted view of the law they feel ordinance violations are not valid because there is no victim. As good faith individuals we follow protocols, it's the same for driving, would you show me proof that you know that offer to dicuss over sometime (course). It legal to travel without a licence. Heck, here in Wisconsin all our driving laws are worded with “operate a motor vehicle”; none say “drive.”. Enter “https://www.police1.com/” and click OK. Can someone explain the "traveling not driving" argument. Individuals may access sovereign citizen theory and documents easily through the internet. Citizens don't have "sovereignty", countries and governmental entities do. I was out at the bars and this guy I know was explaining all this bullshit. [–]Idgafin865 14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (0 children), Or you could take a horse and buggy like our forefathers. The travel vs driving. You guys do know sovereign citizen is a self contradictory term. Quick, remove the plus signs. Here in Wisconsin most, traffic and other minor violations are ordinance violations. [–]Robot_Spider 76 points77 points78 points 4 years ago (0 children). Current sovereign ideology is spawned, in part, from varied doctrines, embracing extremist elements of diverse groups, including: anti-tax protesters, militias, Christian Identity and Posse Comitatus. Point out to them that there is a social contract between the people using the roads and the people keeping the roads open for travel. Keep your eyes open for threats. Its not the license that makes you drive safer, but just being a Human who doesn't want to die so we drive carefully to preserve our health, a piece of plastic doesn't even remotely prove it makes people drive safer. You can ride a bus, ride a bike, walk, hitchhike, ride with a friend, ride in a motorcycle sidecar, and so on, without having a license. [–]FailedTech 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children). Their mantra is to make a cop so confounded the officer just decides to end the contract before he/she becomes more perplexed. Sovereign Citizens’ arguments do not follow traditional legal logic, yet they need to be coherently addressed. Lexipol. When the time comes that they do something that draws the attention of a police officer, they’re even free to ignore the signals from the police officer to pull over. Sure. Yet real lawyers can explain the difference between the two. Think something of an analogue to “Sovereign Citizen” or “Freeman of the land” types, who believe (for utterly demented reasons - and yes, you can bet that antisemitism plays a part) that the laws simply do not apply to them. The sovereign citizen movement is a loose grouping of American litigants, commentators, tax protesters, and financial-scheme promoters.Self-described "sovereign citizens" see themselves as answerable only to their particular interpretations of the common law and as not subject to any government statutes or proceedings. The "right to travel" that I believe was upheld in case law or established early in the formation of the United States was put forth as a framework for setting travel policy between the states. [–]Leointerest 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child). Translation: Someone got their drivers license suspended because they didn't pay a ticket would like to keep driving while ignoring any inconvenient traffic laws. This is a dumb argument and is a loser. That does not mean you have the right to drive though. For example, the house of Windsor. I didn't "rob" the bank, I just "permanently borrowed" the money while wearing a ski mask and pointing a gun at people. You can use other methods, too. If you are a Michigan resident legally present in the U.S., you can get a Michigan driver’s license. If you have more questions about how to drive without a license, and others matters relating to freedom, you can call Tools For Freedom at 800-770-8802 x1, leave your name and number, and we’ll be happy to send you out a free print catalog full of freedom and sovereignty resources. To make matters worse, Kane knew that driving cross-country was risky. This is related to the full faith and credit clause of the constitution, but also relates to not treating similarly situated citizens differently under the 14th amendment, it would favor instate truckers at the expense of out of state truckers. They feel they are exempt from the 'illegal' tax on car ownership. Ask a sovereign what they would do if their child was hurt. What the sovereigns fail to grasp is they are free to travel, by foot, by bike, even by horse. Uniform Stories covers an array of subjects like field stories, entertaining anecdotes, and expert opinions. Just because they are dumb enough to get brainwashed into some crazy belief system does not mean they are too stupid to learn tactics to hurt us. That's why there are COMMERCIAL Drivers Lisences and OPERATOR Lisences. Inside, it states that travelling by motor vehicle is a right and not a privilege, as it notes that whatever is the modern mode of travel for the day the citizen has a right to. © 2021 reddit inc. All rights reserved. Unfortunately, that's bullshit and "driving" legally means exactly what you think it means. “The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. i dont claim sovereign citizenship, but the dmv is a joke of an institution, they just want money, [–]matts2 53 points54 points55 points 4 years ago (1 child), yes, we have a legal right to travel freely between states. [–]Icon_Crash 18 points19 points20 points 4 years ago (2 children). Copyright © 2021 The sovereign citizen movement has become the bane of many police officers in the U.S. That's it. Requiring a drivers license to use public roads doesn't stop you from doing that -- … He didn't have a driver's license. A car is a complex machine. The sovereign citizens and the CopBlock movement both love this question. anyone a sovereign citizen of the us? Thing is, stuff changes during these periods like eyesight, health, criminal history, and so on of people. Comercial does cause it may cause ecomincal damage. However, people who get their legal advice from Wikipedia find out these loopholes don’t tend to actually exist. Both times they were so flummoxed they forgot all the other rhetoric. Not a crime, but a civil forfeiture. [–]Blindmouseottawa 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children). I once argued with a SovCit over this, and he pointed to a case titled Thompson vs. Smith. So yeah, the renewal process is reasonable. I wasn't paying attention because it seemed like he was just another person in these videos. Ask if their house was on fire how they plan to put it out? You can travel without driving, you can't drive without traveling. It also says in the bottom-line ruling, however, that cities and states may regulate it in the interest of public safety-- which he basically ignored by saying that expired stickers don't constitute a reasonable purpose to strip someone of license and then went on to be sarcastic about it. It's a way to try and argue that laws can't restrict their movement and don't apply to them. They are trying to say that they are their own sovereign entity, like a sovereign nation state. As a result operating a car is OK without a license for them. A sovereign citizen will not refer to their vehicle as a “vehicle.” They will refer to it as their “conveyance.” There are no legal requirements (registration, mechanical statues, insurance, etc.) These people feel that due to some contrived loopholes in the constitution they can declare themselves free and laws do not apply to them. The long answer is a bit more complex. I would like to verify that as good human being to reduce harm. Without bothering to look into it, it sounds like something that came out of the mess that was the Articles of Confederation. If not, it is possible to use a valid license from another U.S. state or territory, or to use a valid foreign license. Uniform Stories features a variety of contributors. Police1 is revolutionizing the way the law enforcement community Remember, sovereign citizens have the propensity for violence. Even still, requiring vehicles to be registered and for anyone operating a vehicle to be lisenced and insured is not burdensome, nor are traffic laws, especially that there are so many modes of transportation and driving is the only one for which a traveler is responsible for the safety of other travelers. Be born into the right place in the right family. [–]dojijosu 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children), [–]crithpy 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children), [–]Leointerest 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (4 children). Yes, a traffic stop is a short investigative detention. As such proof of harm is required in case an accident even with all prevention techies as we can not predict the future and funds needs to be available for you to use. You don't have to pay a fee to be allowed to use the roadways.